WEBVTT 00:06.839 --> 00:12.639 hi everyone I'm Kell ooro and this is adaptable Behavior explained hi 00:12.639 --> 00:19.279 everybody thank you so much for tuning in today to adaptable I'm excited to share with you a conversation that is 00:19.279 --> 00:24.840 really near and dear to my heart and to many many um viewers as well and I'm 00:24.840 --> 00:31.519 really excited to have our guest with us today to talk about this topic we're going to talk about the intersection of 00:31.519 --> 00:37.559 religion and Faith with therapy and with me I have my friend and colleague 00:37.559 --> 00:44.520 Brianna it and I'm so happy to have her because we have really rich beautiful conversations about this topic all the 00:44.520 --> 00:51.360 time and so I couldn't think of a better guest to have on the show today with you to share more about this topic so 00:51.360 --> 00:57.559 Brianna welcome and thank you so much for being with us please tell us a little bit about yourself thank you I'm 00:57.559 --> 01:03.600 happy to be here um yes so I am a licensed associate counselor I work at 01:03.600 --> 01:10.280 infinite healing and wellness with Kelly and many other wonderful therapists I 01:10.280 --> 01:15.560 recently moved up to Northern Arizona with my family so I've moved completely 01:15.560 --> 01:21.320 online with my clients which has been quite the transition reminds me a bit of 01:21.320 --> 01:26.680 Co and you know we are rolling with it it's going well being adaptable and 01:26.680 --> 01:32.479 flexible yes yes that's one reason why we you I think we're meeting virtually 01:32.479 --> 01:38.439 today which I love right and and that said you know the reason we wanted to 01:38.439 --> 01:44.360 talk about this topic is because religion is such an important concept 01:44.360 --> 01:51.079 and Faith uh even more so for so much of the population and spirituality and how 01:51.079 --> 01:57.200 people uh think about something greater than ourselves is so varied but for most 01:57.200 --> 02:02.560 of us it has it it it plays a role or it plays a part in how we see ourselves how 02:02.560 --> 02:08.160 we view ourselves in the world uh it helps us to determine values our morals 02:08.160 --> 02:15.080 and how we socially get along and a lot of times this is an important concept to discuss when it comes to the concept of 02:15.080 --> 02:22.319 therapy and getting therapy as well because this can be a little bit of a a conflict internally and externally for 02:22.319 --> 02:28.840 people when it comes to this topic so let's talk a little bit more about why this is important can you can you share 02:28.840 --> 02:38.319 with us why for you this is a really important conversation to be having with our uh listeners today absolutely so I 02:38.319 --> 02:44.800 am a person of faith I grew up Christian in a Christian household faith has been 02:44.800 --> 02:52.280 a part of my story for a very long time as well as how I've shifted throughout 02:52.280 --> 02:58.959 the years in how I just understand my faith how I interact with it my 02:58.959 --> 03:06.280 relationship with it that even in recent years being a therapist has definitely been a big shift in and of itself so 03:06.280 --> 03:12.959 there's been a lot of a lot of thought a lot of struggle a lot of meaning in this 03:12.959 --> 03:18.560 for me and it's been such a journey and I wouldn't have it any other way and 03:18.560 --> 03:27.319 it's just a big part of my life well and I would say that the whole the whole idea of of evolution of growth I would 03:27.319 --> 03:33.360 hope is um is something that does change it's not linear and so as we learn 03:33.360 --> 03:40.519 ourselves as we understand ourselves better in relationship with our faith whatever that Faith may be I I think 03:40.519 --> 03:46.200 that the more we learn in those relationships the more we start to look 03:46.200 --> 03:51.879 at and analyze the way we uh the way Faith interacts in our life as well and 03:51.879 --> 03:57.239 you know I I want to really start out with something to say we want to 03:57.239 --> 04:03.000 disclose and be honoring that we're just we're just uh humans we're both licensed 04:03.000 --> 04:08.040 therapists but we're not theologians we do not have Masters in religion we do 04:08.040 --> 04:16.000 not have additional Advanced education we are just humans who see clients and religion plays a big role and so if we 04:16.000 --> 04:22.160 misspeak or if we get something wrong we're speaking anecdotally we do have some research to support some things 04:22.160 --> 04:29.160 we're going to talk about but mostly we're going to talk about experiences and how uh people can figure out how to 04:29.160 --> 04:35.759 make some decis decisions for themselves related to Faith and really hope hope to broaden perspective a little bit about 04:35.759 --> 04:40.880 the way religion can really play a a prominent and helpful role for people 04:40.880 --> 04:46.440 and also it doesn't have to have anything to do with therapeutic process and experience if that's not for someone 04:46.440 --> 04:52.120 and that it's very personalized so I just want to disclose that we're going to do our best to be honoring but please 04:52.120 --> 04:57.160 uh please recognize we know uh the the imperfection that is likely to be part 04:57.160 --> 05:04.160 of this show and we're going to do our best to be honoring uh one thing that I think is a really important and notable 05:04.160 --> 05:09.240 concept is there has been globally an increase in spirituality but 05:09.240 --> 05:16.000 specifically in the US um 41 PE 41% of people say they've grown more spiritual 05:16.000 --> 05:22.520 over their lifetime and the percentage of Americans who consider themselves spiritual but not religious has actually 05:22.520 --> 05:30.240 increased from 6% in 2009 to nearly 25% in recent years so people 05:30.240 --> 05:35.680 tend to be trending towards less religiosity and more spirituality which 05:35.680 --> 05:42.319 I think is an interesting thing in and of itself when it comes to the concept of religion and there has been a bit of 05:42.319 --> 05:47.360 a decrease in religiosity um and and like 33% of 05:47.360 --> 05:55.160 people report becoming less religious over time and I think that that's something to note uh because there's 05:55.160 --> 06:00.560 also people that identify as both religious and spiritual and and there's 06:00.560 --> 06:06.520 there's a whole broad variation of how people identify and then even within 06:06.520 --> 06:12.680 specific religions you know we were talking earlier while we were preparing for the show a little bit and I said we 06:12.680 --> 06:19.759 could be sitting in in the same church you know identify in the same faith and someone right next to us might be 06:19.759 --> 06:28.720 interpreting whatever is being said by the pastor or the priest or you know the rabbi a very different um experience or 06:28.720 --> 06:34.919 interpretation of what was being said and so I think there's a lot of flexibility when it comes to perspective 06:34.919 --> 06:41.720 and so anyway I think that this topic is important to discuss for those reasons as well as I know that it can often be 06:41.720 --> 06:47.919 considered a potential barrier in going to therapy so so all that to say please 06:47.919 --> 06:52.960 share with us and our listeners why for you personally this is such an important 06:52.960 --> 06:58.360 topic and why you have so much passion related to this uh conversation today I 06:58.360 --> 07:05.280 think a big part of my own Journey not only as a human but as a therapist has 07:05.280 --> 07:10.400 been to grow into expand and understand 07:10.400 --> 07:15.919 more myself and others and a big part of that has been navigating these gray 07:15.919 --> 07:23.639 areas of life and I had to figure out how that fit into my faith it's how does 07:23.639 --> 07:30.280 that coincide and how can I operate as a therapist and still be a 07:30.280 --> 07:36.680 Christian while not putting any of my faith or any of my 07:36.680 --> 07:43.160 personal bias on others so as I've worked out that conflict and that 07:43.160 --> 07:50.960 struggle within myself a beautiful balance has emerged and I have many 07:50.960 --> 07:57.080 conversations with therapists as well as just to my personal life about how we 07:57.080 --> 08:06.440 can incorporate faith in everyday activity and it really doesn't have to be black or white or scary or too much 08:06.440 --> 08:13.280 for anybody where we just have to go I can't do that it's something that we can all navigate if we have the right tools 08:13.280 --> 08:21.039 right you know and it makes me think about the fact that we're humans first when we enter the therapeutic office and 08:21.039 --> 08:26.639 although we have extensive training and ethics training and guidance on how we 08:26.639 --> 08:32.599 are to really leave our own personal values and beliefs at the door and meet our clients where they are and what 08:32.599 --> 08:38.640 matters to them is really the only interest we should have is what do you need what's working for you what's not 08:38.640 --> 08:45.959 what do you find helpful and and truthfully what are resources that you find in your life that help to make you 08:45.959 --> 08:53.120 feel more resilient and I think that for us as therapists it can be tricky at times to respectfully integrate a 08:53.120 --> 08:59.839 client's faith into their therapeutic practice and their experience without imposing our own beliefs because we do 08:59.839 --> 09:05.000 bring implicit bias to every situation whether we want to or not and we also 09:05.000 --> 09:10.079 have our own personal experiences that help you know to guide our thought 09:10.079 --> 09:16.240 processes and everything else so how do we approach this as therapists what are some things we can share with our 09:16.240 --> 09:22.160 listeners that we approach this in order to be uh respectful while integrating 09:22.160 --> 09:30.560 someone's faith and leaving our own personal beliefs at the door yes great question a great first 09:30.560 --> 09:36.839 place to start for any therapist is coming in with non-judgment we come in 09:36.839 --> 09:45.959 we look at this person in front of us and we recognize they're a whole human being apart from us they have this huge 09:45.959 --> 09:52.839 wealth of knowledge of their own life and their own beliefs and it's getting curious It's Going how do 09:52.839 --> 10:00.920 they live out their faith what is Faith to them what's that relationship they have with their faith and just what does 10:00.920 --> 10:08.720 that look like for them everybody's very different and so if we go in with curious eyes it can help a lot 10:08.720 --> 10:15.640 with understanding your client where they're coming from and even help with any personal biases you may have as well 10:15.640 --> 10:20.800 so often I go into sessions and I have to remind myself oh even though maybe I 10:20.800 --> 10:27.440 have very similar life background to this person I don't know what they're going through they do they need to tell 10:27.440 --> 10:32.839 me and that's the same for any topic religion is religion spirituality faith 10:32.839 --> 10:39.880 is just one of those subtopics that we go into and understanding how someone's 10:39.880 --> 10:45.320 Faith or spiritual practices or religious culture has influenced them 10:45.320 --> 10:50.959 both for the for the positive and for the negative because let's be honest with all religion there's an 10:50.959 --> 10:57.639 interpretation that involves man and depending on where messages came from they can look very different uh you know 10:57.639 --> 11:05.160 this priest or this bishop might say one thing whereas the next one in the same faith and the same uh you know religion 11:05.160 --> 11:10.680 might say something very different and so those messages can sometimes be quite confusing and so I think it's really 11:10.680 --> 11:16.279 important for us as The Listener to just open you know open with curiosity like 11:16.279 --> 11:22.680 you said and say you know what's important to you about your religious background the way that you were raised 11:22.680 --> 11:28.639 what you're currently still practicing and and what things are useful and helpful to you and then is it okay can I 11:28.639 --> 11:34.480 have an invitation to to utilize those resources if it if it feels appropriate while we're working 11:34.480 --> 11:40.560 together because I want to make sure that people have at their disposal whatever resources are going to help 11:40.560 --> 11:48.720 them heal more expeditiously but I think that something that comes up off in times that people have to also consider 11:48.720 --> 11:55.600 is When Faith or religious practices have been um where behaviors have been 11:55.600 --> 12:01.800 under the guise of religion or faith when in fact it's man and probably maybe 12:01.800 --> 12:08.079 not necessarily of the faith but it's part of a cultural upbringing where sometimes shame and things like that 12:08.079 --> 12:14.880 have been part of the picture of the person's life and then for us to work to tease out those things and help someone 12:14.880 --> 12:21.000 find Clarity from you know this is part of Faith this is part of how you were 12:21.000 --> 12:26.120 raised that sounds more like a family belief or more like a cultural situation 12:26.120 --> 12:32.920 or a cultural consideration and maybe not necessarily uh religion in in general so it's it 12:32.920 --> 12:38.600 really is a teasing out process don't you think oh absolutely and we're 12:38.600 --> 12:46.160 Spiritual Beings it's part of us you it's a very common phrase that most of us have heard 12:46.160 --> 12:51.399 Mind Body Spirit we are we're not just not just one or the 12:51.399 --> 12:57.560 other and it doesn't always just okay we can just separate one little part of our 12:57.560 --> 13:04.279 lives and not have to look at the rest they all influence the other and this is 13:04.279 --> 13:09.320 no different and it's just being really Mindful and considerate of what the 13:09.320 --> 13:16.040 other person's going through and honestly working through your own internal conflix that might get in the 13:16.040 --> 13:24.120 way of you just holding space for somebody and helping them reach their goals which is our role as a therapist 13:24.120 --> 13:30.000 we're not here to change somebody fix somebody it's here I'm here to I'm your 13:30.000 --> 13:35.560 guide I'm your helper I'm partnering with you in this journey you've shared 13:35.560 --> 13:40.839 with me these goals that you have and I'm gonna I'm gonna help you through 13:40.839 --> 13:47.279 that I'm GNA help you try to get to that point B for starting here right this 13:47.279 --> 13:54.839 give and take right one of um one of our awarenesses as a as therapist is to 13:54.839 --> 14:00.079 recognize counter transference and where sometimes our own stuff comes up when 14:00.079 --> 14:05.959 people are sharing with us do you have any examples I I know that I've got a couple examples where I I know that I 14:05.959 --> 14:11.480 was personally triggered and having some major counter transference when when people were talking in different um 14:11.480 --> 14:17.639 sessions about struggles that they've had whether it was uh something that came in the way of a religious 14:17.639 --> 14:24.360 oppressive Behavior or something like that um and it wasn't really under the guise of of the faith that it was more 14:24.360 --> 14:31.440 of of Oppression or control and then of course where I had a different value experience for humans in general not 14:31.440 --> 14:37.320 necessarily about you know what people should and shouldn't do with their life but more about uh unconditional positive 14:37.320 --> 14:42.399 regard and love for people no matter their choices and um and so I can I can 14:42.399 --> 14:49.120 think of some examples for sure but do you have any examples that you'd be willing to share that come up for you when you think about someone sharing 14:49.120 --> 14:54.920 with you in the counseling experience and something just rubbing you the wrong 14:54.920 --> 15:00.279 way because of what it did for them or did not for them I should say 15:00.279 --> 15:07.680 yes I frequently I mean most of my clients have some sort of Faith whether 15:07.680 --> 15:13.519 whatever it looks like it's that doesn't have to be Christian but there's different ideologies that come through 15:13.519 --> 15:20.920 my door and I always get so worked up about 15:20.920 --> 15:26.399 pieces where someone is like you said kind of that oppressed mentality that 15:26.399 --> 15:32.639 experience they have especially with women obviously I'm a woman I've gone through my own faith Journey myself I've gone through my own 15:32.639 --> 15:38.040 religious trauma as well and so I have to really check myself to go hey this 15:38.040 --> 15:43.279 one this one isn't your experience this may not actually be traumatic for them 15:43.279 --> 15:50.360 and they share various ideologies and ways of thinking about you know whether 15:50.360 --> 15:56.319 they the church or their their faith entity that has given them and any 15:56.319 --> 16:05.480 anyone that suppresses women or makes and feel like they're less than or little or they aren't worth sharing 16:05.480 --> 16:10.759 anything because they don't have anything worth sharing that's typically something that gets me a lot and I have 16:10.759 --> 16:16.319 to watch myself from like being like well we have to work through that and 16:16.319 --> 16:21.920 make that better for you and I have to really put the breaks on to just 16:21.920 --> 16:29.560 understand what is that like for them and is it even important to them because that's not always something that we need 16:29.560 --> 16:36.079 to tackle in therapy if it's not a problem for them right but sometimes it is and that's where you know there's a 16:36.079 --> 16:42.160 there's an Artful balance I think that happens I'll share with you a story I may not have shared this with you before 16:42.160 --> 16:48.759 um it was it was early on when I was a counselor and I was I was seeing a a woman a young woman who was uh recently 16:48.759 --> 16:54.480 divorced she had been married uh she was uh from the LDS faith and from the time 16:54.480 --> 17:00.880 she was a very little girl she understood herself to be a gay woman and that was not something that was allowed 17:00.880 --> 17:07.600 in her faith and she really struggled I mean her whole life with the shame and the oppression around how she felt she 17:07.600 --> 17:14.240 would be perceived by her church should that be that should that truth ever come out and she tried so hard to not be and 17:14.240 --> 17:20.280 got married and had a child and so on and so forth really trying to just not be gay she did not want that to be who 17:20.280 --> 17:26.280 she was because of her importance of her her family culture and her faith culture 17:26.280 --> 17:31.760 and um and I can remember she you know she she shares a story where she goes to 17:31.760 --> 17:37.799 uh the Bishops and um her her account of it was something to the tune of they 17:37.799 --> 17:44.600 told her she was no longer allowed to pray with everybody in the church that she needed to take a break you know and 17:44.600 --> 17:51.840 this this young woman who's just begging for what can I do how can you help me and and because I have these desires and 17:51.840 --> 17:57.159 you know shaming her and and basically um making her leave and and all of this 17:57.159 --> 18:02.640 stuff and I just I had so so much counter transference in that moment of just wanting to protect her from this 18:02.640 --> 18:11.240 terrible experience because they just uh they met her with with such to me a non- loving stance and and um and and it was 18:11.240 --> 18:17.320 just really a hard hard session and I got so like angry this was the only time I've ever I mean boy did I have to 18:17.320 --> 18:22.679 address this in therapy but I I said can you give me a second and I actually got up and walked out of the office for a 18:22.679 --> 18:28.039 few minutes and tried to collect myself because I knew I wasn't going to be able to be who she needed me to be for that 18:28.039 --> 18:34.120 to hold her own pain I was so angry anding so protective of her and um and I 18:34.120 --> 18:40.120 actually used it as a reparative experience I said you know I'm I'm feeling a lot of protection for this 18:40.120 --> 18:46.280 young woman that went through this experience and I'm so sorry you weren't held in a more loving way over that time 18:46.280 --> 18:51.360 and um and I just felt very angry that you went through that and and so please 18:51.360 --> 18:56.400 forgive me it was not about you that was about me and and it ended up being you know good and reparative and I think she 18:56.400 --> 19:03.039 felt really seen because she was very shut down but I just remember thinking like how does this elicit love and I 19:03.039 --> 19:09.120 know they've changed their stance uh I think culturally quite a bit uh I don't know today she would be received in the 19:09.120 --> 19:15.960 same way but uh but back then it was like really a painful experience and for her it it pushed her even further away 19:15.960 --> 19:22.240 from her faith and her religion because she was not accepted and so I think that there can be those those Faith moments 19:22.240 --> 19:29.200 where trauma exists but um but of course not for everybody but this was just one of those moments that really hit me as a 19:29.200 --> 19:35.039 therapist and I had to you know um yeah I had to really get myself together but 19:35.039 --> 19:40.280 but you know I think faith has so many beautiful attributes and beautiful ways 19:40.280 --> 19:45.880 that we can um we can utilize for our clients if that's one of their Tools in 19:45.880 --> 19:51.840 their toolbox one of their sources of resource and resilience and so what are some effective faith-based coping me 19:51.840 --> 19:57.280 mechanisms that you think can be used in therapy and how can they be tailored for 19:57.280 --> 20:04.280 individual clients like what do you use how do you meet people where they are regarding their faith yeah that's a 20:04.280 --> 20:10.600 great question any part of therapy we're resourcing we're looking at supports 20:10.600 --> 20:15.760 what coping skills do you have how can we build that up for you and if 20:15.760 --> 20:21.919 somebody's faith and spirituality or religion however you want to call it it 20:21.919 --> 20:29.039 part of it sometimes is very comforting it's it's something that they draw strength from and they can go to times 20:29.039 --> 20:35.679 of Crisis and being able to get curious again going hey what are some things that you 20:35.679 --> 20:41.039 already have that are already really comforting for you what something that 20:41.039 --> 20:46.120 you go to when times are hard and as you 20:46.120 --> 20:51.760 build relationship with people you start understanding more of who they are and 20:51.760 --> 20:58.400 if it's something that's really important to them it comes out but also it's our job as therapists to ask questions to understand all these 20:58.400 --> 21:03.799 different different pieces of someone's life and I find a lot of times you can 21:03.799 --> 21:09.600 tailor a lot of coping skills and grounding exercises that already exist 21:09.600 --> 21:16.679 without a label religion on them you can tailor it to anybody's belief system 21:16.679 --> 21:22.279 habits religious practices affiliation practices yes absolutely so I find 21:22.279 --> 21:27.919 things like meditation meditation can be something where you can make it whatever 21:27.919 --> 21:36.200 you need it to be whatever you want it to be pray is meditative absolutely it's so meditative you know scripture reading 21:36.200 --> 21:43.360 scripture that's something that you can find where you can look up a scripture meditate on that scripture even go in 21:43.360 --> 21:48.640 journal how it made you feel what's bringing up for you meditate 21:48.640 --> 21:55.400 on just the different aspects that is hitting you and that's something that you can make meditation you could also 21:55.400 --> 22:00.760 go I'm going to meditate on how blue the sky is today and how it makes me feel it 22:00.760 --> 22:07.480 doesn't have to look a certain way what do you say have you had a client who says you know I can't meditate because 22:07.480 --> 22:13.039 that's not in line with my spiritual or my faith uh my faith and what do you say 22:13.039 --> 22:21.320 to that good one I do get that sometimes because there is a lot of fear involved 22:21.320 --> 22:29.880 with certain practices that we have now where it may have had an or origin and 22:29.880 --> 22:35.320 maybe like an Eastern religious origin or just a different culture and there's 22:35.320 --> 22:40.520 not a whole lot of understanding about it but also we just don't know exactly 22:40.520 --> 22:45.640 where everything actually originates and sometimes people get the well it's not 22:45.640 --> 22:51.520 for my religion so I need to not be a part of that because it's going to 22:51.520 --> 22:57.360 sometimes I hear bring an open door for evil to come into my life or I'm might 22:57.360 --> 23:05.799 be sinning and don't want to sin because if I sin then that means I can't go to heaven or I am rejected and I totally 23:05.799 --> 23:13.039 understand those pieces because we don't want to be rejected and we do want to do what's right and being part of a faith 23:13.039 --> 23:20.279 can help a lot with giving us some moral guidance and sure in the midst of that 23:20.279 --> 23:28.080 we don't have to be so afraid of everything there's certain things that have a label like meditation it's 23:28.080 --> 23:33.600 something we've called being in a meditative State and it gets this 23:33.600 --> 23:39.720 connotation sometimes of you have to do these chance or the spiritual whatever 23:39.720 --> 23:44.799 that comes with it and it's it's just not the case I think there's just a lot of Mis misinformation and 23:44.799 --> 23:49.880 misunderstanding about certain practices where you have some 23:49.880 --> 23:57.240 superstitious beliefs about things that don't always make logical sense and might not even be in the Bible or in 23:57.240 --> 24:03.480 whatever religious text these clients have so it's just a matter of like education kind of help showing 24:03.480 --> 24:11.440 like hey it can look like this and you can call it whatever you want it doesn't have to be under this certain label slow 24:11.440 --> 24:17.559 down and get quiet and go inside yes and just be present with the quiet and and 24:17.559 --> 24:24.240 be open to the and be curious to what comes up for you inside of you and and 24:24.240 --> 24:31.000 that surrender and that powerless feeling of not being in control of that can be scary for people but I think it 24:31.000 --> 24:36.960 also gives us a lot of answers as to what the noise in our own bodies and minds are trying to tell us and things 24:36.960 --> 24:43.919 that need to be paid attention to so that we can find our way toward healing and towards yes peeling off the layers 24:43.919 --> 24:50.240 of the onions that we develop over time to protect ourselves from you know the pain experiences that we that we got 24:50.240 --> 24:58.559 through no absolutely and there's times when it comes up where after you've explained and you've given examples and 24:58.559 --> 25:05.679 hope you know your hope is to help normalize it a little bit so it doesn't feel so scary and unknown and sometimes 25:05.679 --> 25:12.880 still they're like that still doesn't feel good I don't want to do that and that's something where you go cool let's move on let's find something else and 25:12.880 --> 25:19.200 it's never something that we're like pushing an agenda on but it is our job as therapists to educate people on 25:19.200 --> 25:24.360 certain practices they may not know about that's why they're coming to us because we know things we know how to 25:24.360 --> 25:30.399 help heal we know how to help ground and Coke so right and and and access pain 25:30.399 --> 25:36.880 points in our bodies if we're bottom up trauma trained and and you st trauma is stored in the body and so I think 25:36.880 --> 25:43.480 getting ourselves back in connection with the body does often take things like meditation or yoga or slowing down 25:43.480 --> 25:49.960 in some ways so that we can connect with our bodies and um whatever that needs to look like so we can get back in 25:49.960 --> 25:55.919 connection with our body if we've been pretty disconnected because of of our histories or because of trauma you know 25:55.919 --> 26:02.440 that's we have to re-enter I mean we really can't heal if we're not in our bodies and so I think sometimes that can 26:02.440 --> 26:07.640 be scary in and of itself quite frankly so right facing your trauma like it's 26:07.640 --> 26:12.880 not something you typically do willing someone that says I need to just pray 26:12.880 --> 26:18.399 and I can't you know go to therapy because God will help me with it and 26:18.399 --> 26:25.480 that's that's going to be enough what do we say to that you know part of me says not my place to tell anybody anything 26:25.480 --> 26:31.960 and another part of me is going sometimes you do need more help and 26:31.960 --> 26:38.880 sometimes it isn't enough yeah I think God or whatever the faith is I know 26:38.880 --> 26:44.880 we're coming from a Christian perspective a lot of the times but a lot of times God uses various things for our 26:44.880 --> 26:51.399 healing and typically I find if somebody is really wary of something like therapy 26:51.399 --> 26:57.880 it's usually deeper than just oh God's going to heal me or oh I can just talk to my friends they're they're going to 26:57.880 --> 27:03.120 listen to me and that really helps me a lot and then nothing gets 27:03.120 --> 27:09.799 better nothing changes you might feel peaceful in the moment and that's great and I definitely do not want to dis 27:09.799 --> 27:17.159 prayer because there is so much power in it from just my own personal experience seeing it and from my own personal 27:17.159 --> 27:24.120 experience and my professional experience sometimes we do need just a little bit more help and I there's this 27:24.120 --> 27:30.520 you a lot of people have think I've seen it but there's this um or this um 27:30.520 --> 27:36.679 basically story about someone praying and asking God for help and they're they're in a flood they're on top of the 27:36.679 --> 27:42.960 house and there's a flood and they're praying that God gives them help and I 27:42.960 --> 27:48.120 forgive me because I'm going to mess up on all the details but basically he sent there's like somebody in a boat that 27:48.120 --> 27:54.480 comes by hey do you need help no God's coming and a helicopter Drives By hey do 27:54.480 --> 28:01.640 you need help and they're like no no God's got it and then have this other other piece here that's coming by them 28:01.640 --> 28:07.000 and they're like nope and then eventually the water succumbs and they 28:07.000 --> 28:12.799 pass away and they get to heaven and they're like God why didn't you save me and God's like I sent you three 28:12.799 --> 28:18.960 different things to come help you and that always gets me because there is 28:18.960 --> 28:25.000 this piece of this give and take where right we have prayer and we have our own 28:25.000 --> 28:31.120 personal responsibility for our healing sure and and and the fact that you know 28:31.120 --> 28:37.360 if you are a believer in that way God works in mysterious ways through others to help us find yeah what we're supposed 28:37.360 --> 28:44.240 to find in that moment for whatever that that time is so when you think about 28:44.240 --> 28:51.480 like where we have limitations I think something that I found very important in my work as a therapist is if I don't 28:51.480 --> 28:56.960 know I go get consultation from someone who's kind of high up in whatever that 28:56.960 --> 29:03.559 church is you know on the phone many of times with bishops from the LDS church I have a lot of LDS clients or former LDS 29:03.559 --> 29:10.519 clients and calling and saying you know this person is struggling with shame around sex or around their body or 29:10.519 --> 29:15.799 around you know um some different new in a marriage and they don't know anything 29:15.799 --> 29:21.519 about their body and they feel a lot of Shame and everything's really uncomfortable and they've never been 29:21.519 --> 29:28.399 free to know anything about their bodies and explore and things like that so I'm I'm like uh I'm in a phone of friend and 29:28.399 --> 29:34.440 I'll get back to you the next session because I don't want to inadvertently mislead somebody away or toward anything 29:34.440 --> 29:40.519 that isn't for them and so you know I will typically ER with just leading with 29:40.519 --> 29:46.279 love and if you feel shame that's probably not for you because your body is beautiful and we were made to feel 29:46.279 --> 29:52.919 good and we don't know what we don't know so it's okay to explore and get curious if that's what's going on in your marriage and you're you're okay and 29:52.919 --> 29:58.159 you're the sanctity of your marriage and you want to figure that out together I think that's really who you need to ask 29:58.159 --> 30:03.960 I don't know if anyone else needs to be part of that decision you know and with the phone call getting validation that 30:03.960 --> 30:10.240 that's a good answer you know some of those kinds of things I I've I've relied upon because you know I know what I 30:10.240 --> 30:17.080 think and I know what I was raised uh to believe but that might not line up for certain faiths and so I've definitely 30:17.080 --> 30:23.200 cannot stress enough how important it is and a good therapist should do consultation with someone in that faith 30:23.200 --> 30:28.440 if they are not of that Faith so that they can uh better guide you and also get things out of the way aren't really 30:28.440 --> 30:35.600 about it you know this is man this is culture this is Faith I cleared this up with your Bishop I feel strongly to be 30:35.600 --> 30:42.320 able to say here's where you're where you're getting a little bit run of ground and it's probably not serving you in your healing journey and to be able 30:42.320 --> 30:47.760 to really be able to candidly talk about things in that way I think is really important as well and so it's not to 30:47.760 --> 30:54.720 move anybody further away from their faith uh that's never an agenda that any of us should have for sure yeah 30:54.720 --> 31:00.760 absolutely so when I think about therapy and choosing a therapist how important 31:00.760 --> 31:06.480 do you think it is that when choosing a therapist that that they are the same Faith as I am what do you think about 31:06.480 --> 31:14.399 that people who think that that's necessary I thought that way one time I I very much was under the impression 31:14.399 --> 31:20.679 that I needed to find a therapist that shared the same Faith with me and I did I found one and it was great it was a 31:20.679 --> 31:27.279 great therapy experience I also realized as I became a therapist and continued my 31:27.279 --> 31:34.600 own therapy personally if you find a good therapist that is able to keep their own stuff 31:34.600 --> 31:42.000 theirs and not put it on you you actually probably won't know what religion your therapist ascribes to at 31:42.000 --> 31:48.159 all because it's not about them it's about you and I've had both and it's 31:48.159 --> 31:54.480 been it's been amazing it's it's more of what's your own personal Journey right 31:54.480 --> 32:01.159 but it really does just depend on the person there times when maybe someone that shares 32:01.159 --> 32:07.600 same faith is going to help you feel the most comfortable and that's just where you're at and that's okay research does 32:07.600 --> 32:13.480 support that that can help with certain out therapeutic alignment 32:13.480 --> 32:20.240 yeah yeah and at the same time you know we don't want to get too myopically focused on a on something that is an 32:20.240 --> 32:26.440 external variable as far as how we heal when there's neurobiology of trauma 32:26.440 --> 32:33.039 that's really at the Forefront of things and we need to look at the biology of us and yes that's not really an argument at 32:33.039 --> 32:38.519 all you know there's biology that suggests cellularly we behave in certain ways based on the things that have 32:38.519 --> 32:44.679 happened to us and so yeah that there's not really a place for um uh faith in 32:44.679 --> 32:51.000 that moment because there's already the research around biology now that doesn't mean they can't work together and I mean 32:51.000 --> 32:57.279 I've had clients where I'm like we're going to do a gnarly piece of work here and I know that God and prayer are 32:57.279 --> 33:03.000 incredibly critical in your resourced uh and and resilience experience and so 33:03.000 --> 33:08.240 would it be okay if before we do this work that we could pray together so that 33:08.240 --> 33:14.600 we can get everything on board here so we can do the best most U meaningful work for you and have whatever resources 33:14.600 --> 33:20.279 are beneficial for you and I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that how about you oh no absolutely not 33:20.279 --> 33:25.519 you're the person wants to anding in absolutely yeah that's something that 33:25.519 --> 33:30.880 they've communicated that's comforting helpful supportive Freedom you're doing 33:30.880 --> 33:37.120 your job as a therapist to remember that and incorporate that so we just have a 33:37.120 --> 33:43.000 little bit more we're going to talk about today uh with this topic and I know we could probably do an entire 33:43.000 --> 33:48.679 actual just full podcast on this topic and break it down into so many different 33:48.679 --> 33:53.919 different areas but what do you what do you think is the difference between someone who says and I'll use Christian 33:53.919 --> 34:00.200 as an example um but like I am a Christian and I am account coun versus I am a Christian counselor how would you 34:00.200 --> 34:06.000 differentiate that for somebody because we all know as Master's level 34:06.000 --> 34:11.599 therapists we are counselors who might identify in a certain way and we unless 34:11.599 --> 34:18.480 we have very specific training probably ought not to be doing anything but what we're trained to do absolutely well 34:18.480 --> 34:24.480 that's in our ethics as well so right right but I think that it's an interesting thing so how would you 34:24.480 --> 34:34.118 advise someone who you know was looking for that and and what what that means yes so someone who is looking for 34:34.119 --> 34:40.760 a strictly Christian counselor somebody that incorporates Christianity and faith 34:40.760 --> 34:46.599 into therapy regularly it's one of like almost hand inand that's a Christian 34:46.599 --> 34:52.118 counselor and so it just kind of implies that you're integrating faith into counseling 34:52.119 --> 35:00.800 methods frequently you're using biblical teachings and prayer as part of the therapeutic process you're aiming to 35:00.800 --> 35:09.079 kind of address psychological issues while considering spiritual aspects pretty much most of the time and 35:09.079 --> 35:14.920 it's and it's always going from that Christian world view it's you know what will God say about that and and in 35:14.920 --> 35:21.480 different things like that and on the flip side when you're a therapist and then you happen to be a Christian as 35:21.480 --> 35:29.119 well those two things are separate it's basically I am a therapist and you 35:29.119 --> 35:34.800 specialize in whatever specialty is you like for me example I'm a trauma 35:34.800 --> 35:41.520 therapist I specialize an EMDR IM movement desensi and reprocessing and I happen to be a 35:41.520 --> 35:47.200 Christian and I I don't bring that up in therapy I don't bring up my religion 35:47.200 --> 35:53.400 unless somebody directly asks me and even then even then I'm very I use a lot 35:53.400 --> 35:58.599 of discretion in that because sometimes there's bigger reason why they're asking 35:58.599 --> 36:03.760 it's like hey are you feeling uncomfortable what's what's going on it's less about what I believe and more 36:03.760 --> 36:10.680 about what you're needing and what you're concerned about but I'm pretty open about my personal life and how I 36:10.680 --> 36:16.560 how that comes into therapy but yes like typically with when you're a counselor 36:16.560 --> 36:23.400 and a Christian and not just a Christian counselor it's very different because practicing will look and to claim a 36:23.400 --> 36:28.520 Christian counselor what needs to happen you have to special training and you're 36:28.520 --> 36:34.079 there's a special governing board for Christian therapists they have their own 36:34.079 --> 36:40.880 entity and you have to go through these very specific training and lure 36:40.880 --> 36:47.440 processes just like with being in other kinds of therapists and right specialist a lot of people don't know that and I 36:47.440 --> 36:52.880 think that that and then I think that it also oftentimes gets misused because if we don't have all of that additional 36:52.880 --> 36:59.560 training we need to be very cautious because we are not experts in that area interpretation and perspective those can 36:59.560 --> 37:06.520 vary so wildly and drastically and and uh it's not in our best interest to misstep with our interpretation of 37:06.520 --> 37:12.200 something it's really out of out of place and inappropriate for that so I think that it's a good thing to know 37:12.200 --> 37:17.839 that when looking for a therapist and um and that it's more important probably 37:17.839 --> 37:23.960 that they are qualified that they are good fit for you when it comes to personality that their experience their 37:23.960 --> 37:29.800 education and their Advanced trainings work for what you're presenting is issues are uh truly that I think is 37:29.800 --> 37:37.040 probably the best way to look for that but at the same time you know sometimes that matters uh to people for sure so 37:37.040 --> 37:43.720 how so how do you think therapists address the stigma around mental health within Faith communities and encourage 37:43.720 --> 37:49.720 open supportive uh conversations uh that is Hit or Miss I find Faith communities 37:49.720 --> 37:57.160 even in you know if we just stick to Christian as most of my personal knowledge is with faith there's so many 37:57.160 --> 38:04.480 different ideas and beliefs and kind of temperatures for mental 38:04.480 --> 38:10.640 health you have some that are very kind of cold to it and they're you know you 38:10.640 --> 38:18.200 only are allowed to be happy if you're not happy then something's going wrong and you 38:18.200 --> 38:24.119 know we we need to take some action or you're even shunned and other times 38:24.119 --> 38:29.240 it's very warm and welcoming and going hey everybody's welcome here and let's 38:29.240 --> 38:37.280 get to the bottom of that you're still accepted and so there's just it's all over the place because there's just not 38:37.280 --> 38:44.440 it's not standardized it's not something where you know every every church is different so there's a big wide range 38:44.440 --> 38:49.560 that you're working with sure I have to I can share with you something that I do 38:49.560 --> 38:55.160 to address this is I say listen can we agree that God or whatever is out there 38:55.160 --> 39:01.720 depending on their faith that we are designed to have emotions and we do have affective circuits and they are not hit 39:01.720 --> 39:08.839 or miss like we all have these affective circuits and what I will tell a client or perspective person who's talking to 39:08.839 --> 39:15.000 me about this topic is I'll say we're hardwired to have all the emotional experiences and when we shut any of them 39:15.000 --> 39:21.359 down we're not living the fullest Human Experience and so I kind of think that God thinks we could heal but we can't 39:21.359 --> 39:27.880 skip any steps and we can't ignore any of the big feelings and we can't hide and oppress and you know deny our 39:27.880 --> 39:33.119 emotional experience and the things that happen to us so unless we are willing to Wade through that we're not going to 39:33.119 --> 39:38.319 find our way to wholeness and healing and um and and that said there's no 39:38.319 --> 39:44.760 shortcuts we don't get to just you know do anything that that allows us full 39:44.760 --> 39:51.720 full healing without experiencing the full Human Condition and and the emotional expanse of of experiences that 39:51.720 --> 39:57.640 we are so uniquely afforded as humans so I say that and I'm like you know don't 39:57.640 --> 40:05.480 get to pick and choose the emotions we were harded to have that's not in my hands you know right well and so often 40:05.480 --> 40:10.599 those responses come from just not understanding and not having the tools 40:10.599 --> 40:20.240 we need and that could be across the board and doesn't always even have to be religious related but I do find a lot of 40:20.240 --> 40:25.960 that in the church absolutely and it's it's well-meaning we want people to feel 40:25.960 --> 40:31.680 good we want to be close to God and it's misinformed and we do need to help 40:31.680 --> 40:37.560 educate people to understand just how the body works at a cellular level you know emotions are held in the body 40:37.560 --> 40:42.960 stress trauma and when we close yes and they need an outlet and they need to get 40:42.960 --> 40:49.040 out you have to feel it to move through it and so often anxiety worry shame 40:49.040 --> 40:55.680 guilt depression upon yes it's like what's going on is do you sometimes people even 40:55.680 --> 41:01.240 believe there's an evil spirit living inside of you because you're experiencing that emotion and I'm not 41:01.240 --> 41:08.920 going to get into that at all but I do know not can of worms we need to be right with emotions we are meant to feel 41:08.920 --> 41:15.680 the whole Spectrum I love getting out my emotions wheel to show we have every emotion Under the Sun and it's just 41:15.680 --> 41:20.760 learning how to feel it in healthy ways because so often we didn't have good 41:20.760 --> 41:26.720 examples and we didn't know how to do it or we didn't have the capacity to deal with it and like our caregivers didn't 41:26.720 --> 41:32.280 and then that get passed down generationally and it gets woven into 41:32.280 --> 41:38.040 religious matters because at the heart of it there are humans in church and 41:38.040 --> 41:45.720 they have their own limited perspectives and so you're just it's really about like understanding getting curious and 41:45.720 --> 41:52.280 having some education right well I thank you so much are there any other things you want to leave with our audience 41:52.280 --> 41:59.119 before we part ways for today related to this topic yes I think just as a closing note 41:59.119 --> 42:04.560 wherever anybody is at in their Journey you know a therapist is listening in or 42:04.560 --> 42:10.599 a client it really is all about you know how comfortable are you feeling with 42:10.599 --> 42:15.760 your therapist do they align with your values and it's okay if they don't 42:15.760 --> 42:21.240 always have the same religion I have so many clients that have come in with a 42:21.240 --> 42:28.280 different faith and different practices and somewhere all over the place and it's okay it's do matter it's just where 42:28.280 --> 42:34.119 they're at yeah and it's what's working for you what's not working for you and how can I help you find your truest self 42:34.119 --> 42:39.599 so that you can and lovable and worthy and I think that's the desire for for 42:39.599 --> 42:46.599 all of us I mean wouldn't that be beautiful if we all could feel that way right jobs for sure yes I know and I 42:46.599 --> 42:52.200 don't have to feel threatened if you have a different belief than me you know my we we can be secure in what we 42:52.200 --> 42:59.920 believe and not worry that something else is going to rub off on us and right I've just the end the day trauma is 42:59.920 --> 43:06.160 trauma and it needs healing just as anything else and like 43:06.160 --> 43:12.480 when I use EMDR I don't ask what faith you are I go what's the trauma right and where is it and we heal the trauma and 43:12.480 --> 43:18.880 typically everything flows out of that and right so often you get so free from 43:18.880 --> 43:24.720 healing from the past and not having to run away from it so and people access 43:24.720 --> 43:31.359 surrender and then they actually do have much more freedom and when you think about the coexisting freedom from trauma 43:31.359 --> 43:38.079 is truly leaning into the powerless and surrendering to what is and was and and what what we don't have control over and 43:38.079 --> 43:45.079 Fai a bit like that like it's not in your hands surrender is really the answer and so those pieces really marry 43:45.079 --> 43:51.880 well together it's like we don't get to decide and try we just want to lean in to whatever's coming up and hopefully 43:51.880 --> 43:57.400 allow it to have a safe and supported exit so Bri thank you so much for being 43:57.400 --> 44:05.079 on this show today with me I think we could definitely do another one um I just appreciate your time and cander and 44:05.079 --> 44:11.680 warmth and you're just such a doll to work with and I know your clients love and appreciate your energy about this 44:11.680 --> 44:18.839 and and um and that you know the diversity of faith is also part of what makes The Human Experience beautiful and 44:18.839 --> 44:25.359 I love to get to work with different um different faiths and different cultures I think it's fascinating and I think 44:25.359 --> 44:32.400 it's uh it's always so beautiful to get to experience those things so thank you so much for for being with us today for 44:32.400 --> 44:38.240 having me yes and thank you so much for tuning in to these shows on the 44:38.240 --> 44:46.280 intersection of faith and religion and therapy we hope that you found it helpful and please leave your questions 44:46.280 --> 44:53.440 in the uh the comments below if you have those uh or thoughts that we should expand upon and until we meet again 44:53.440 --> 45:00.069 don't forget to lead with love it'll never steer you wrong [Music] 45:00.760 --> 45:16.989 okay [Music]