hi everyone I'm Kelly ooro and this is
adaptable Behavior explained Welcome to
our show today I'm excited to have you
here and to introduce a new series
called counselor Cafe where I have
chosen to interview other therapists so
that we can talk about important
Concepts and things that are plaguing
people in the world today and I'm really
excited especially to have Jamie
Castillo here who is the owner of finder
shine Therapy in Tempe Arizona and also
author of this awesome book what
happened to make you anxious which we
will be talking about in Greater detail
on our show today so um therapists
become therapists because we're
interested in our craft and we're
interested in how humans work and I
don't think I've met a single counselor
who hasn't had stuff in their history
that they're more eager to explore so
part of what makes us more uh aware and
awake about helping others is really
knowing and being aware about what's
going on with us and what motivated us
to become a therapist so on that I'm
going to kick Jamie off here tell me a
little bit about yourself maybe on that
note you know a little bit something
gritty about anxiety perhaps since you
are an
expert sure thank you so much for having
me I'm really happy to have this
conversation it's so important um and in
terms of my journey you know like you
mentioned as therapists we are really
encouraged to do our own work in the
journey to become a therapist so that we
can show up for our clients better and
so in my journey I started unpacking
some of my own anxiety and uh really
realized that there's a lot in my
history that uh contributed to how I
felt as a a budding therapist and in
particular I experienced a lot of fear
around being incompetent sounding dumb
um and you know when I really unpacked
that in therapy I realized this actually
comes from somewhere even though I
didn't have a a blaringly obvious trauma
that that caused it um and so that's
sort of what what prompted me to to do
my own work and to start um writing this
book awesome well that that's really
interesting and I thank you for your
vulnerability about that I I always tell
my therapists as I'm teaching and and
we're doing consultation and Staffing if
there's something that's in their way
you know typically it's our counter
transference and a funny phrase around
our office is your is showing you
know we better get your cleaned up
so that it's out of your way because
otherwise you're in the way of your
client so I I have even more respect
hearing about that and I think it's a
great uh screening question when you're
looking for a therapist of your own
asking them you know do you do your own
work and are you actively seeking those
additional help because that's what
keeps us Sharp it's what keeps us aware
so thank you for sharing about that I
really appreciate that vulnerability um
so tell me you said that's what made you
start to write the book tell us a little
bit about the book what we can expect to
find in it as well as for you the
purpose for the reader absolutely so I
learned early on that it was an
impediment to call myself a trauma
therapist and to be marketing to people
who'd experienced trauma
because are there are certain types of
trauma that everybody identifies as
traumatic right and we talk about those
sometimes they're referred to as big tea
traumas where people will say if I've
been through something like abuse or
assault or um car accidents car yes
these these big things shootings abuse
yes Etc that everyone doesn't deny right
would look at that and say that is
traumatic those people would likely seek
out trauma therapy right and so for for
many of us though it's it's more about
little underlying things that did happen
or didn't happen that don't necessarily
rise to the level of a big te traumatic
event but that still impact us today and
so for me doing my own work meant
exploring what those littl te traumas
were and and honoring them and being
able to say no that doesn't rise to the
level of a a life-threatening experience
but it certainly impacted me and still
impacts me and I have an obligation as a
therapist and as a mom and as a partner
and as all of these things to look at
that and to explore that um and and to
unpack it that's so so true and really
poignant I appreciate that so much so
thinking about trauma and symptoms of
trauma you know I understand anxiety as
a symptom of trauma I mean it's
something that's unresolved that we
haven't yet identified it's originating
origin of it of its roots and what
happened like you talk about in the book
on how to sort of find our way to those
moments that created the anxiety and our
nervous systems so let's talk about
anxiety what how would most people
understand anxiety is a symptom and what
are some things that are obvious that we
all know about anxiety that people can
really point to but you know which will
help us to better talk about things that
most people don't understand as anxiety
symptoms certainly so for me if somebody
had asked me are you an anxious person I
would have said who me no absolutely not
I'm fine right and for me it was I I
first noticed it when I was sitting in
uh my internship for graduate school and
we I was at an internship site where I
was providing therapy as an intern and I
was surrounded by people much more
experienced than me so therapists who'd
been doing it a lot longer and every
time it was sort of a roundt Ted
Staffing right so we'd go around and it
was one person's turn to talk or to
staff a case and I noticed that as it
would get closer to me my anxiety would
just rise and rise and rise and and that
looked like typical symptoms right so my
heart might beat a little bit faster my
Palms might get sweaty I might just feel
sort of keyed up and and those were
classic signs of anxiety um and and when
I unpacked that I I really
found out that there was something
deeper in my history that had happened
that created this
overwhelming kind of ridiculous fear of
speaking in front of other people and
sounding
incompetent and so those were the
symptoms that that sort of keyed me off
to knowing okay there's something here
going on it doesn't seem like other
people are experiencing this amount of
anxiety in this room but I think for for
a lot of people you know those classic
symptoms can show up but also more
inconspicuous symptoms like so before
before we dig into that I want to just
kind of pull back a little bit because I
want to make sure that we talk a little
bit about the fact that anxiety is not a
bad thing it gives us the energy we need
to motivate us to avoid failure to
finish things to not want to uh be
incomplete with something to get that
last assignment done to try to do a good
job so a lot of times people paint
anxiety as if it's always bad all the
time and stress is really actually
really important in small doses not
acute and all the time and pulled back
and I know I know that you know that but
I want to make sure that our viewers
know that
because we need anxiety to motivate us
and I don't I I don't know about you but
I don't know a person with a master's
degree or higher that wouldn't probably
meet criteria for generalized anxiety
because it helps to motivate success and
so we're talking today more about those
symptoms that are so not ecological like
you just shared where you're getting
ready to present and you're overwhelmed
with this fear of sounding like you
don't belong there and you're not going
to be competent if you say something or
it's not going to be correct and that's
the stuff that throws us into that
freeze State and ultimately that noisy
voice in our head that says you're not
enough you're not smart enough strong
enough competent enough and that's where
we can really dig in and so so from
there uh let's talk about those more
innocuous symptoms those ones that not
everybody would understand as anxiety
that perhaps could Point them to further
exploring those roots does that sound
okay with you definitely yeah you make a
good point about anxiety that fits the
facts of the situation so if I have a
presentation coming up and I feel a
little anxious about it that's going to
prompt me to prepare and that's helpful
and when I'm sitting in a meeting with
my colleagues and it feels like there's
a lion about to attack me in terms of
what's going on in my body that's
disproportionate and that doesn't fit
the facts and that's worthy of
intervention so yes the more
inconspicuous symptoms of anxiety in my
mind can a lot of times it comes across
as irritability right when people tend
to have a short fuse or I feel like I I
just don't have capacity I don't have
tolerance
for much at all and I and I come across
really irritable um that's an indicator
to me that there's some anxiety going on
because when I'm worried
about things related
to to survival and livelihood it's
really hard to to have capacity for
anything else those are really
fundamental things that my brain is
trying toow us down they impede our
thought they impede our action and it
shows up as a reaction as opposed to a
response that's measured in realtime
ecological safety and so I I think that
that is a great you know segue into I
kind of want to share a client story so
that as people are listening they they
understand that we are all impacted by
triggers in our environment and some of
them are so not obvious as far as how
they are rooted in our history and in
our past and how they have informed are
presenting issues today so I had I had
this client awesome woman High achiever
very successful strong marriage
beautiful home you know just all the
things and when we first started talking
you know I said let's dig into your
history and she's like oh my childhood
my childhood was per honestly it was
perfect it's almost embarrassing and we
get to talking and you know they went to
church and there was always food on the
table and her parents showed up to
everything and she was the valedictorian
I mean just all the things that would
make someone go nothing's wrong with
them why would they be complaining about
anything and and what she understood in
herself was you know more irritability
than she wanted uh impatience some
symptoms that that look like ADHD and
probably are ADHD as well as anxiety But
ultimately there are things that were
bugging her about herself and there they
weren't these Global sweeping problems
that were in infringing on her ability
to be an awesome productive person but
she she didn't have patience for a lot
of compassion she didn't have patience
for a lot of you know people needing her
and things like that and so we dig and
we dig and we spend some time figuring
out what what happened you know what
happened that created this IM impatience
in your nervous system and you know
eventually we discover that she's a baby
and when she's a baby her grandfather
passes
away and her mom checks out not because
her mom's a bad mom but because her mom
is dealing with an extraordinary grief
experience and and the baby feels that
you know in my own story my mom had a
miscarriage when I was like two and she
checked out so even just an experience
that happens to our mothers creates this
instability of support where we don't
understand where they went why aren't
they there for us and so we learn things
like I can't count on anyone or I have
to make sure everybody's okay or I need
to double check and and fix all the
problems because if people have a
problem they leave me and it's so
interesting these adaptations that are
really anxiety
driven but are super socially supported
oh she's so helpful she's such a good
little girl she helps her sibling so
much she gets straight A she's never got
a problem in class you know so these are
the kinds of things where it's they're
not bad adaptations but they can be a
problem when they are done too much or
they're motivated by this sense of angst
and and something's going to go wrong if
I don't or I'm not going to be seen as a
good enough person if I don't so can you
think of some other examples that would
match those underlying kind of more of a
small te experience which really turn
into a an extraordinary presenting issue
that is so longlasting for sure thank
you for sharing that it's it's so common
right and I think people really discount
their experiences and say well I don't
need therapy I my childhood was great
and that was a similar story for me too
I had had a good childhood there were
some adverse experiences in there but
nothing that I said oh I would
definitely need therapy for this I was
traumatized by this but for me it was
being the youngest in a really high
achieving family and uh having two older
brothers that were maybe not technically
genius level but but I I saw them as
Geniuses they were so smart and I have
memories of sitting around at the dinner
table
and my parents talking about things and
my brothers chiming in and talking about
things that were way too sophisticated
for me to understand at that age and so
I would check out and they would all be
having these robust conversations about
politics big fancy words that are out of
your vocabulary because they're not
appropriate for your age yes exactly and
so I sort of internalized I I can't keep
up with this conversation I'm not smart
enough I'm not capable I'm just going to
zone out and and there it is play with
my food right exactly and so had you
asked me is that a trauma memory I would
have
left as most of us would like the dinner
table was fine right it was fine I was
just the youngest um but it's it's about
what we internalize what we take and so
in those examples yes if I'm perfect if
I do everything the right way maybe I'll
get the attention or the praise that I
need that I'm not getting because my
mom's checked out that makes so much
sense so do you have any sections that
you can share with us from your book
that are just kind of show stoppy so
that a person purchasing it can tell us
what
they this section could tell us what
they can expect when they read your book
so the
book the premise of the book is that
anxiety is a helpful messenger the more
we try to outrun it the the more we try
to extinguish it and get it to to go
away the louder it becomes
and sort of a metaphor for that would be
if you're in a burning building but you
don't realize it's burning and
somebody's shouting to you saying hey
you're in a burning building and we
don't hear them and we carry on because
we we're not listening to them that
person is not just going to say well
okay and walk away and go the other
direction that person is going to say
hey you're in a burning b they're going
to get louder they're going to get more
pronounced they're going to get more
creative with how they try to convey
this message to you because there's real
danger and anxiety does the same thing
when we ignore it when we extinguish it
when we suppress it it says I'm going to
get creative and I'm going to get louder
and I'm going to cause more symptoms
because there's a threat here right
problem is oftentimes it's interpreting
threats that aren't actually real
threats so when I'm sitting in my
perception it's the perception of threat
based on those things that we talked
about in history right so when I'm in
the meeting with my colleagues it's not
threatening they're very supportive I
can say something and it will be well
received and if I say something dumb it
won't matter it it's a very
compassionate environment but it was
like my anxiety was saying danger danger
danger danger if you say something dumb
you won't be accepted you won't fit in
you won't be a good therapist one day
all of these things that were very
important to me and so I had to learn to
rather than suppress it outrun and say
that's stupid that doesn't make sense
stupid anxiety go away I had to say this
has information for me and it's pointing
me to hey this experience in your past
was big it was meaningful and we can't
let it happen again because it felt
really bad and so as soon as I tuned
into it and said hey anxiety okay what
do you have for me hey messenger what
data are you trying to red flag and
dashboard me so that I don't ignore it
exactly and I can with it lean in so the
premise of the book is designed to help
you a start
to befriend your anxiety start to say
rather than running away from you I'm
going to turn toward you and I'm going
to listen and I'm going to see what
information you have for me which is
that can take a long time that's a hard
thing to do because anxiety sucks it's
uncomfortable we don't want to but we
want to be thinking about it like it's
our friend like it's a messenger and so
part of I think the work and and what
you so beautifully describe in your book
is let's lean in and get close to it and
befriend it so that we understand what
are you trying to tell me like like
someone who's got our back as opposed to
you know the part of us that's
sabotaging our world it's like if I slow
down and listen in I've got good
information I can lean into and and
explore greater my whole self and my
whole story exactly awesome so and then
we let anxiety guide us to the little T
traumas the the things in the past that
you wouldn't readily identify as big
traumatic incidences but the place where
anxiety was born as a way to help you
avoid some distressing or or threatening
situation in the future and then we get
to look at that and dig around in that
and help resolve that so that anxiety
doesn't have to work so hard it doesn't
have to be the person in the outside of
the burning building
screaming it can say it's safe to move
forward I can rest I can I can ease up a
little and then the presentation the
benefit of that is that we get to live
with less anxiety right which is
everyone's goal we lean in and then it
can lessen yeah is there anything you
want to share directly from from your
lovely words that drives that home well
uh I do have one section where I talk
about how do you know if you need to
revisit a memory or not so sometimes
people clients will come in and they'll
say well yeah this happened but I just
don't really know if I need to go back
there and so I talk a little bit about
uh the disconnect between knowing
something to be true and something
feeling really true and you've talked
about this a lot and you're an expert in
this area but the disconnect of you know
I know something wasn't my fault but I
just feel guilt and shame about it as if
it were my fault or I know that I'm
competent I know that I'm capable but I
just feel so impostor yes yes the
impostor syndrome the sphere of failure
and so the book in that section helps
you identify ways in which you know
something to be true about yourself
others or the world
but it doesn't feel true and that's a
good indicator that there's work to be
done there aw and the good news is
there's work that's effective to help
people uncover unpack and get to the
roots of their issues and fully resolve
them resolve them for once and for all
you know I talk in other episodes about
EMDR therapy which is such a robust
beautiful therapy that really does
address the roots of stored
maladaptively encode memories that are
plaguing us today and so you know as
EMDR therapists we know that it works to
effectively change the way we relate
with our presenting symptoms namely
anxiety in this this show and I love
that a person can read this book and
really do a lot of pre-work yes to get
to and and in conjunction with their
work to go see you know a bottom-up
therapist like EMDR or somatic
experiencing or any other
mindfulness-based approach that
addresses the somatically stored and
cellularly stored information that we
have that we all have that could
potentially be you know causing us
problems today so I'm so grateful that
you wrote this book and that you put the
time and love and authenticity into it
because it's such an awesome book I
highly recommend you pick up this book
if anxiety bothers you or someone that
you know or love it would be just a
great uh thoughtful thing to share uh
you can get it on Amazon and we'll put
that link in the uh section below and
the the comments below but I just really
appreciate you coming today and I thank
you for being here and uh really get
this book if you have a book uh list
that you're looking to grab and I just
want to thank all of you for tuning in
to our episode today and don't forget to
lead with love it'll never steer you
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wrong
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